Modified car law changes.

Ian Anderson · Post by **Ian Anderson** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:38 pm

Stevie
Seems we are almost on the same lines!

On the Super MOT I would suggest things like Brakes and Balance - make sure the fronts lock first - after all most modified cars put in a big V9 where there was a 4 banger - twice the weight out front puts more weight on the front axle and the rear gets light and locks early!

Chassis strengthening - hell that can only be good!
chassis cuts - need to be plated and re strengthened
Steering must work and the steering column not become a spear through drivers chest in a bump
Roll cages would be fine provided they have no crazy sharp edges and not goint to crush a scull on acceleration.
Seat belts would be mandatory and if not originally fitted would need certification of the fit by an engineer.
Seats should be firmly bolted to the chassis and of a design that can take the force applied n acceleration (Not thin fiberglass bucket that rips out of place)
Lighting would be free like a normal MOT but allow LED units etc.
Rear view must meet specifications (ie see behind car and to sides for lane swapping)
Tyres to be suitable for approx speed capability of car.
No fuel / brake leaks
Fire extinguishing systems acceptable.

All else should be as per normal MOT

Anyone care to add any more?

Ian

stu8 · Post by **stu8** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:03 pm

All the above are elements of the existing SVA, rules on seat belt fixings are quite precise.

I can see an issue with having a Super MOT in that if in year 1 it needs a super MOT because it's not standard then it will always need one as the normal MOT inspection would not be able to cope with the mods.

But having an SVA will not solve that problem because it's still going to be non standard and the normal MOT system won't know whether anything has been changed, even with photo evidence, so it looks like it will have to be a 2 tier MOT, one for completely standard, (in the MOT testers opinion), and then the Super MOT every year for non standard.

The whole thing has got to have a LOT of thought put into it, otherwise it will have holes big enough to drift sideways through.
.

stevieturbo · Post by **stevieturbo** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:07 pm

Im not familiar with the SVA, but I did read, that the classic car owners were concerned, that some older vehicles simply could not pass an SVA.

Alley Kat · Post by **Alley Kat** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:39 pm

That tradition of those weird kits & hybrids in the 50s & such, and way before that the specials and modifieds, they'd be in trouble. Even things like door hinges (those old external sort) have to be protected/smoothed, all sorts of stuff. Even grey import Imprezas have the stereo changed because it projects too far... (some yrs anyway). Though standard old cars wouldn't have to be SVA'd. Not sure what the rule is but I brought a 60s car in from Ireland and didn't have to SVA. Might be a 10-yr-old rule, not sure.

At least with a new build you can do it with SVA in mind; not sure how many have been SVA'd as yet but a '41 hot rod pickup was built last yr specifically to go through SVA as learning process (was a raffle giveaway too, bargain for £3!)

Post by **katanaman** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:46 pm

Don't agree with the super mot for ever. There is no reason why a normal mot tester cant test the car once it has been passed by an engineer just like they do for the SVA right now. A car is a car and play in suspension is the same whether its modified or not. The only reason for the super mot is to check that the mods have been done to a safe standard. This can't be the call of an MOT tester as they are mechanics and aren't qualified in structures. Trouble is your car would have to be documented in case you carried out further mods in the future. The whole thing would be a mess no doubt and I doubt there is any statistics to say a modified car is less dangerous than the standard car anyway. Anyone ever driven a standard ford pop? I have and it was frighting, that car needs modifying to be safe lol.

Your not going to like this Ian but I still see the need for the stricter SVA for new build kit cars or one off home made. in other words never been registered before cars. Your building a new car and as such should conform to modern standards. An SVA is chicken feed in comparison to what car manufacturers have to go through when they produce a new car. The only difference is they are mass producing them.

As for the two year MOT, yes I think it will happen. Be warned though if it does happen your probably not going to get way with home repairs and servicing. Either that or your going to have to go through a stricter mot. Nothing new there of course as they are already talking about banning none qualified people working on cars. We will have to see what happens with that one too. Coming to think of it if they ban that then everything else doesnt matter as you wont be able to mod or build a car anyway.

stevieturbo · Post by **stevieturbo** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:33 pm

katanaman wrote: they are already talking about banning none qualified people working on cars.

That is getting ridiculous.

I know plenty of guys, with lots of qualifications behind them in the motor trade.

I wouldnt let any of them near my car.

I on the other hand, dont have one single motoring/mechanical based qualification to my name.... I think its safe to say, I am quite capable at working on most cars though, and doing the job right.

Alley Kat · Post by **Alley Kat** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:35 pm

Thats how it is in part of Europe already, like I said my Dad can't even legally change his own engine oil. In places old cars can only be driven on routes agreed with the cops in advance. What's the betting that sh*t's heading here some time...

stevieturbo · Post by **stevieturbo** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:40 pm

I know in Italy etc they have that silly oil thing....

I think the idea behind that, was due to so many tits just dumping oil whereever they fancied, instead of disposing of it properly.

Im sure that does happen in the UK, but not to the same extent.

No matter what, Im sure we will all be able to buy our oil in bulk, so we can change it ourselves. But if they introduce a system that means we dont ahve anywhwere to dispose of it easily....then it will get dumped illegally.

Its their choice...

Alley Kat · Post by **Alley Kat** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:43 pm

Re Italy possibly, dunno, but what I meant was my Dad has to take his car to a garage to be maintained. Not allowed to DIY maintain.

stevieturbo · Post by **stevieturbo** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:58 pm

Alley Kat wrote:Re Italy possibly, dunno, but what I meant was my Dad has to take his car to a garage to be maintained. Not allowed to DIY maintain.

If I was ever forced into that position....god help anyone who maintains the car should I have a maintenance related accident.

Id sue the poop outta them.

It will never happen though.

Ian Anderson · Post by **Ian Anderson** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:46 pm

Marki

I would be up for a stricter SVA IF the rules were exact.

Now in my case I am building a replica of a 1964 designed and 1967 raced car.

The whole thing is 40.5 inches high and they want the headlights to be a minimum of 50cm above ground level measured from the base of the light. Yes it measures that but let me get in the car and the suspension squish a bit and it is really marginal. BUT the rags state to be measured as presented and I presented the car with me outside!

The switchgear inside a 1960 car was predominanyly Lucas type toggle switches - not legal unless they are within a certain radius of the steering column - you can still spear your knee on one in this position! Look at the new BMW Mini and they put switch guards on to get by using the period type switches.

They even specify the bezel radius on the gauges - in case you come into contact with them. 6 point harness and move forward 2 foot you have no legs left as they would now be out in front of the radiator! But I fitted legal bezels.

So how am I supposed to ge a N cap rating on it? Or fit dumb chld friendly bumpers, or airbags, or warnings that the seatbelts have not been done up? Oh an which production car has a 6 point harness?

The SVA bloke did not think that the tyres were good enough for the top speed - R21 gearbox and 6000 rpm will see a max of 160mph BUT on a road over 70 and you are illeaga. And once on a track the SVA holds no weight!

YES SVA is good but from my experience the testers are glorified MOT testers (actually they are truck and bus testers) and behave like mini Hitlers. They have the final say so they win but they can make rules up as they go and there is no system for appeal. *see earlier post re convolited conduit)

Talk abour crazy I got a tester who was about 5'8" tall - the car is set upo for me at 6'3" so when he sat in it he did not like the rear vision. We must move the mirrors. Retest and a bloke about 6'5" does it - sits in and almost decapitated homself with the door when he closed it then said the mirrors are too high for hime to view. Make sense of that and so I unscrewed them and put back in original position to get a pass!

Yes tighten but only on safety - or they will start failing cars because it is painted yellow and they feel it should be bule today!

Ian

Post by **katanaman** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:10 pm

I agree with the way the test is being done is wrong. There isn't any uniform approach to it. I don't think the testers are particularly up to the job either. I don't agree with you on the contents though. You chose to build a classic replica car in a modern time. As such I really think it should be treated as a modern car and have to conform to the new rules. What makes you any different from ford when they built the new GT40? They had to abide by all the new rules and probably a hell of a lot more. I love the old GT40's but I also love the new one built to modern standards. I also like model T fords but wouldn't dream of trying to build an exact replica and try getting it on the road, it just wouldn't be safe. I know that's an extreme example and your 40 is a well capable car just the way it was but where do you draw the line. Who decides what was good in the past and what really shouldn't be allowed to be re-made? Besides if your that concerned about originality down to the switches you can use why have you got a Rover engine in it.

The no DIY thing is an EU thing not a UK plan. The idea would also stop the sale of parts to the public so you just wouldn't be able to do it. Its a crap idea at best but as Bill said its already in place in some countries. Some countries its so expensive to certificate a car after 3 years its economically not possible to do. I believe that's why jap imports are so cheap because its the case there. Go to OZ and the market is flooded with cheap 3 year old imports from Japan.

Stevie are you from north or south Ireland? Just wondering as your MOT seems radically different.

stevieturbo · Post by **stevieturbo** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:31 am

As long as the internet is here, car parts can be sourced anywhere.

Northern Ireland.

The MOT is only different, by who its performed by. The DVTA ( Driver Vehicle Testing Agency )

There are centres scattered around the country, usually with 4-5 lanes. 2/3 generally for trucks etc and 2/3 for cars. Some are larger than others of course.
I think such centres exist on the mainland, but are geared towards commercial vehicles. They can do cars too though.

In some ways its better, in others worse.
Usually there is a 4-5 week waiting time from when you book your appointment, until the actual test date, so it does need planned in advance.
One upside of this, is that if a car fails, you have 21 days to carry out a re-test, which normally only checks the fail items. The re-test fee, is half the normal test fee ( might be more now actually....been a while since I had one fail )
Full test is a little over £30 I think.

BUT, with it being run by government personel, which are usually fairly well monitored, slipping cars through isnt easy. Its rarely one will become your friend as such.
With all their new equipment, their MOT2 as they call it, uses some fancy equipment to test brakes, shocks, and all suspension joints etc. So failures are much less down to the operators discretion. If the computer says there is an imbalance L-R, or F-R etc on your brakes, thats it, you fail. Doesnt matter if its borderline, and generally the brakes are perfect...still a fail.

Quite often, cars need full disc, pad, wheel cylinders, shoes etc etc change, in order to comply with the brake test.. Even wheel cylinders of a different brand, can cause an imbalance. Some may have a slightly different bore size....it really is that sensitive.
It is a bit OTT.

The emissions is one area thats more lax. Up to 2001 cars, its the basic 3.5% and 4.5% CO along with 1200ppm HCC emissions etc.
They did start to enforce the 1992+ emissions test as per UK on March 1st last year.
Then on March 16th, it was switched only to cars of 2001 and younger era.

I think the high failure rates among petrol cars, when there really wasnt anything wrong with them, combined with testers advising customers what they thought would fix it....
The customer doing this, and still failing, then pointing a finger of blame at the MOT testers, all didnt look good for them.
Most garages here dont have a clue either, so they were stumped when it came to fixing the cars. Some had customers paying lots of money, and the car still failing. Most decent cars.

Then the diesel smoke test. Lets rev the shite of your diesel car, despite you never having done so in its entire life...

Oh dear, your engine has blown up, and you've also failed.... Next car please...

Now, I think this aspect is part of the test in the mainland, but I know if I was the tester, in my private garage, and I was to perform such a test, I'd be shiting myself in case I blew the car up, and had to pay for the damage.
So I'd probably be inclined to go a little easier on the car. WHen your just an employee, being instructed to do it....you dont care...and many didnt.

What is the diesel emissions test like over there ??

Post by **katanaman** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 3:44 am

Diesel test here officially is foot to the floor but very few testers will do this. Most of them go a bit easy, they still get a good rev but not to the governor and hold it there. When the smoke test first came in there were blown up engines and law suits all over the place. They withdrew the test for a while and brought it back. Same test but now you should be asked when the car was serviced and was the timing belt changed. If the belt hasn't been changed your given the option to withdraw from the test and get it changed if you don't its on your head if it lets go. Basically they have made it your fault if the engine goes bang. Haven't heard of an engine letting go in a long time so I guess the testers have found a happy mid point. Not sure what retests and all that are like now as I get trade tests so don't get charged for them. It also means I never get a false fail. A. because the tester isn't like that anyway and B. because they know they wouldn't get any repair work out of it anyway. I guess having dedicated test only stations you wont have that problem anyway. I couldn't be doing with 4-5 weeks before you can get your test but I guess if your used to it then it wouldn't matter.

As for getting parts, yes there will always be a way but it could get sticky. Turn up for MOT with a new track control arm and no receipt from a garage that fitted it kind of thing.

Your right about some mechanics being useless as well but then very few of them are actually qualified. There isn't a law that says to be a mechanic you need to go to school like gas fitters or electricians. Main dealers will be qualified but your back street butchers seldom will be.

Ian Anderson · Post by **Ian Anderson** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:41 am

Marki

The new Ford GT never met UK specifications - even with the EU restricted exhaust it fails. BUT Ford has a lot more clout than a single nuilder!

There are also numerous other issues on the new car hat make it non SVA compliant yet the all get a SVA pass - strange!

Just goes to show how the rules fluctuate!

Ian