Twin Plenum Twin Turbo'd motor

Fozwanger · Post by **Fozwanger** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:28 pm

If you haven't already guessed, I'm building a motor for my morris, 3.9, JE heads, blower cam etc and will be force feeding a twin plenum from an SD1.
From several posts on another thread that have been very informative I will be using the twin plenum manifold and modifying it to accept 14mm injectors and using a hotwire fuel rail.
I've been looking at ecu's and I have afew questions about the MS option, especially the plug and play.
Firstly, can I use a 14CUX loom on the twin plenum set up or does the TP set up use essentially the same loom? If this is the case can I then get a plug and play with a base map to get the engine running and off to a RR for full set up?
If not, what is the best "kit" to buy? Do I want wasted spark, sequential or batch fire injectors, MAP or TPS or both, coil on plug, will it manage my nitrous as well?
Any info would be greatly received as I feel I'm wondering blindly into this mine field at the moment.

Cheers

Jeff

DaveEFI · Post by **DaveEFI** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:38 pm

The TP Vitesse has flapper injection which is different from Hotwire. So the loom is very different. Not to say it can't be modified, though.

You can do pretty well anything with the different versions of MS - it just depends on how deep your pockets are. It can all be DIY'd - if you have the necessary skills.

Post by **demo2** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:51 am

Contact Phil at extra efi, he will give u advise on a megasquirt setup without all the salesman bullshit buy my products blah blah blah.
He helped me decide on my twin plenum setup,wasted spark etc.

DaveEFI · Post by **DaveEFI** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:05 am

Just to add, nothing is going to be 'plug and play' on a setup which was never in production.

Your TP setup is for flapper injection which uses a cold start injector and extra air valve for fast idle. The injectors have series resistors. The hotwire has no cold start injector, stepper motor idle, and high impedance injectors with no resistor pack. One uses an AFM, the second a hotwire sensor. And neither includes ignition. The way the fuel pump is controlled is different.

So no factory loom is going to be close to correct for what you want - even before the situation of the ECU determines overall length. Which means a plug and play ecu replacement is pointless - you're paying a lot more to have the guts of an MS put in a Lucas case. Excellent idea on a standard setup - but your isn't.

So I'd go for a 'standard' MS and a custom made loom. You can start with a standard one to supply the cable etc if it's in reasonable condition - I'd go for a hotwire one as it will be newer and uses the later thinwall cable. If you're fitting the MS in the passenger footwell it should also be long enough.
It's also well worth fitting a wideband O2 sensor.

daxtojeiro · Post by **daxtojeiro** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:21 am

DaveEFI wrote:Just to add, nothing is going to be 'plug and play' on a setup which was never in production.

Your TP setup is for flapper injection which uses a cold start injector and extra air valve for fast idle. The injectors have series resistors. The hotwire has no cold start injector, stepper motor idle, and high impedance injectors with no resistor pack. One uses an AFM, the second a hotwire sensor. And neither includes ignition. The way the fuel pump is controlled is different.

So no factory loom is going to be close to correct for what you want - even before the situation of the ECU determines overall length. Which means a plug and play ecu replacement is pointless - you're paying a lot more to have the guts of an MS put in a Lucas case. Excellent idea on a standard setup - but your isn't.

So I'd go for a 'standard' MS and a custom made loom. You can start with a standard one to supply the cable etc if it's in reasonable condition - I'd go for a hotwire one as it will be newer and uses the later thinwall cable. If you're fitting the MS in the passenger footwell it should also be long enough.
It's also well worth fitting a wideband O2 sensor.

Ive done loads of Plug-n-Play ECUs for the flappers and they are simply plugged in using 99% of the original loom. This includes the extra air valve, injector resistors, TPS, etc, etc. The only real change is the AFM needs swapping for an air temp sensor.

The only problem is they are now 300 years old and usually arent performing very well.

Personally I think the extra cost for a PnP, as far as the flapper goes, is better spent on a new loom. I can get these made pretty cheap, (£275) then at least its all going to be reliable and sorted.
But some people like to keep everything original, so the PnP ECU is still an option,
thanks
Phil

DaveEFI · Post by **DaveEFI** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:05 pm

I've done a couple of my own 'plug and play' conversions for flappers, and retained the flapper for those who want it to look exactly the same under the bonnet. But all that it is actually used for is the ATS - the flaps can be removed to improve flow.

Most seem to want P&P to make it simple to change back to the original. But usually decide on MS because their original system isn't quite right. So in practice never change back.

But in Fozwanger's case he's not using standard flapper or hotwire anyway, so it's a no brainer.

£275 for a custom made loom exactly to the required spec is IMHO a very good price. Dunno how you do it.

Fozwanger · Post by **Fozwanger** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:25 am

Hi guys, thanks for the replies. I'm going to splash out and I'm going for a motec m48 with sequential injection, coil on plug sequential spark, it'll control my nitrous, boost, all bells and whistles. I only want to do this once and the guy that I'm using has 20 years experience in Aussie v8 super cars series for motec.

)

DaveEFI · Post by **DaveEFI** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:13 am

COP on a Rover V8?

Fozwanger · Post by **Fozwanger** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:28 pm

Apparently so. He's done it before without any issues in RV8's, do you know somethng I don't?

(Well, of course you do or I wouldn't be asking these question, D'oH!!)

stevieturbo · Post by **stevieturbo** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:49 pm

Fozwanger wrote:Hi guys, thanks for the replies. I'm going to splash out and I'm going for a motec m48 with sequential injection, coil on plug sequential spark, it'll control my nitrous, boost, all bells and whistles. I only want to do this once and the guy that I'm using has 20 years experience in Aussie v8 super cars series for motec. )

How many ignition outputs does your M48 have ? I know the M48Pro only has two, unless an ignition expander can be added.

As for the twin plenum, it will be of no benefit on a boosted engine unless somehow it makes your plumbing easier. But it will not help power at all.

Fozwanger · Post by **Fozwanger** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:35 am

[/quote]

How many ignition outputs does your M48 have ? I know the M48Pro only has two, unless an ignition expander can be added.

As for the twin plenum, it will be of no benefit on a boosted engine unless somehow it makes your plumbing easier. But it will not help power at all.[/quote]

I appreciate that, it's all about the looks as well. I don't like the look of the stock plenum, that's the bottom line. The twin looks more purposeful.
The M48, apparently you can use the spare injector outputs or something, he did go into detail but I'd reached saturation point by then and it was all coming across as just words

DaveEFI · Post by **DaveEFI** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:25 am

Fozwanger wrote:Apparently so. He's done it before without any issues in RV8's, do you know somethng I don't?

(Well, of course you do or I wouldn't be asking these question, D'oH!!)

COP would be directly above the exhaust manifolds so will get very hot. BMW didn't go for that when they revised the RV8, so you can draw your own conclusions. Despite them using COP on their other engines of the time.

Fozwanger · Post by **Fozwanger** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:16 pm

I've just asked and he is planning on using a coil for each plug rather than COP, similar to a viper or later corvette. The coil is about 8" away from the plug.
So yes it is COP but not physically on the plug.

stevieturbo · Post by **stevieturbo** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:13 pm

Fozwanger wrote:I've just asked and he is planning on using a coil for each plug rather than COP, similar to a viper or later corvette. The coil is about 8" away from the plug.
So yes it is COP but not physically on the plug.

It is not COP, ir is CNP, coil near plug.

COP is as the name implies, the coil fitted directly to the plug with no HT lead.